Controversial Tunisian association advocates secularism
2007-08-28
Tunisia's Association for the Defence of Secularism has been the subject of public debate since its creation in May 2007. Magharebia met with founding member Salah Zghidi recently and used the opportunity to voice a number of the Tunisian public's questions about the group and its goals.
Interview by Jamel Arfaoui for Magharebia – 28/08/2007
 C[Jamel Arfaoui] Sala Zghidi said the belief that Bourguiba was a secular reformer is a misunderstanding. |
The formation of an Association for the Defence of Secularism has sparked considerable debate in Tunisia. In a previous interview, Magharebia discussed the creation of the association with founding member Sofiene Ben Hmida. In a follow-up, fellow association member Salah Zghidi answers some of the Tunisian public's lingering questions about this controversial organisation.
Magharebia: Many Tunisians do not understand the motivation behind your creation of this association, given that Tunisia has been considered more or less secular since the declaration of the republic.
Salah Zghidi: There is misunderstanding on this issue that secularism was connected to the person of Bourguiba, the republic's first president; that, because he was a student in France, the man's personal makeup leaned towards secularism. I believe that Bourguiba did not build the Tunisian state on a secular basis, and we see that through the legislative texts and the constitution. Bourguiba was a reformer, and no one can deny that; he believed in equality between the sexes, and he believed that the intentions of Sharia are able to achieve steps towards modernity. Thus, the starting point of his choices was not secularism.
Otherwise why do you find us today pursuing the demand for reforms, such as changing the inheritance law, which is subject to the Islamic Sharia, as well as the issue of marriage between a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man? The inheritance law present in the legislation, as well as marriage between a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man, are carried over from [Bourguiba's supposedly] "revealed" legislation. The Tunisian state's relationship to religion differs from its Arab and Islamic counterparts because the distance between religion and the state is wider than that of any other Islamic nation, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt. But we strive to fill the gap for the sake of achieving complete equality among citizens. There is no modernity if there are disparities between the sexes.
Magharebia: The first section of the constitution stipulates that Tunisia’s religion is Islam. Does your association demand the deletion of this section?
Zghidi: This question was raised some time before we announced the creation of our association. And this section [of the constitution] is the subject of special controversy. There are those who think it references not the Tunisian state with its institutions, but rather Tunisia as a country. We do not deny that Islam still has an important role in Tunisian legislation and in the course of the nation, and the first section expresses that. We believe that legislation and laws are subject to change for the sake of realising equality between men and women, and it is a core issue [in moving] towards progress, modernity and full citizenship. For the sake of achieving these lofty objectives, there are those who propose that clarifications be added to the first section of the Constitution, such as affirming that [the first section] is applicable as long as it does not result in any decision or measure not in keeping with the requirements of modernity and progress, especially in the area of equality.
Magharebia: Will your association defend the right of Tunisian women to wear the hijab, a matter of controversy among Tunisian men and women?
Zghidi: The issue of the hijab in Tunisia is a complex issue and one raised for several years. As democratic secularists and progressives, we do not accept any barrier dividing women and men. Likewise, we reject calls for separation between girls and boys at schools. We want them to be brought up together without barriers, as equal human beings seeking knowledge. From this vantage point, the hijab is a barrier between the sexes. Likewise, we do not encourage women to hide behind the hijab on the pretext that their bodies are cause for temptation and sexual lust. This is a view debasing to women. We believe resisting this negative phenomenon does not require resisting it through the involvement of security forces, but rather through continuous dialogue in free and open media.
Magharebia: Do you not fear being charged with apostasy and the dangers it may bring on?
Zghidi: This is possible and exists. All those who believe in modernity and equality and call for the state’s relationship to its citizens to be a relationship of citizenship and not a relationship of faith are exposed to charges of unbelief by many who call themselves scholars of religion, though they in reality have no relationship to knowledge. They are likewise threatened by adherents of Salafist thought, which is espoused by movements of political Islam. We in Tunisia still remember when the Islamic Ittijah Movement—now the Renaissance Movement, banned in Tunisia—when it charged Education Minister Mohammed Charfi with apostasy in 1991 and deemed him excommunicated from the Islamic religion, merely because he put forth an education curriculum based on modernity.
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Moslem Tounsi Posted 2007-08-28
103. Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds? 104. "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?" 105. They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight. 106. That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
tounsi Posted 2007-08-28
What good news! Finally an organization that is going to help advance Tunisia. I am a Charfist (Islam and freedom). More precisely I stand for the intellectual, not the politician. I am in Canada- if you ever happen by let me know.
zadmichr Posted 2007-08-29
I give my respects to this initiative, which has taken it upon itself to set up an organisation for the defence of secularism in Tunisia. I would like to point out that the number of Tunisians who, residing both here and abroad, have been pleading for this cause is many. This is an opportunity to remind the Tunisian people of their true history which goes back to the Punic era (Carthage) and is filled with such great events and breakthroughs in the social and political spheres. I regret that this part of our history is not had in value and is even denied by the youth in Tunisia. You have cited a typical example that is a long way from a true secular approach: “marriage between two people of different faiths.” This seems to branch from a point where individual liberties are strictly obstructed for the benefit of a faith which does nothing to justify itself in the face of an emotional connection between two people! It is time that Tunisia do its utmost for secularisation and stops modifying the constitution.
Arabdiou Posted 2007-08-29
Hello, Thank you for spelling it "laïque" and not "laïc" , this will come to pass because the country of Tunisia is no more in the hands of the un-elected clerics than France is in those of the Catholic Church. –Sincerely, Hakim Aradiou
Laïque a 100% Posted 2007-08-29
I am glad to have such a debate: it is time secularism takes its proper place in Tunisia. I wonder if the organization has a website to get the word out and provide more information about its wonderful initiative to those interested? Why not have an interface so as to provide and important forum for debate between intellectuals? I am, like Tounsi, a Charfist and I would like this great thinker of ours to become active in this initiative.
مسلمة تونسية Posted 2007-08-30
To Moslem Tounsi, I think that by using all these verses from the Koran, you consider that was said or thought by Mr. Zghidi to be disbelief and atheism deserving of punishment. This shows again the ignorance of many people of the meaning and principles of secularism. I invite you to read the subject with consideration, without any pressure or prejudices and you'll understand that if secularism was spread out in the Islamic region, it would be the best defender of the freedom of belief. I urge you, my brother in Islam, to be patient- you and others- in issuing judgments and misusing the Koran. Do not forget that Al Motazila lived and expressed their attitudes freely and Muslims were at the top of their powers, they did not subdue any harm or accusation of atheism or disbelief. I wish you true guidance. Salam.
andalus Posted 2007-08-31
There is no power and no will but from God the Almighty. What is this horrible contradiction? Muslim idiots... Why is Article I of the Tunisian constitution Islamic? If you want to change the laws of God in His land, you will share the destiny of the people of Lot. I remember that I had some secondary school students from Tunisia. You can't imagine what these laws made of secularism in Tunisia, that you imposed them on a Muslim nation, and took off that skin, God is my mandate, and how the thoughts of your sons changed.. I taught them computer classes for two years, with this faded mentality as a result of your innovations to eradicate the Islamic identity from their minds. Neither the Americans nor the Europeans have ever thought of doing what you did, from removing the Hijab to religious ID cards. And why do we protest against France, while among us the chaste hijab is banned to our girls in the name of modernity and civilization…and corruption? Where do you want secularism to take you? I was saddened for your sons when one of them told me that when his daughter will gets older he will not stop her from practicing obscenity with her boyfriends. He told me there was nothing wrong with it... let her do whatever she wants. Look to what extent the young Tunisian man thinks in this mentality. No one has reached that animal western mentality but the Tunisians. So here is the good news for the supporters of modernity- some of your young people will let their daughters and youth have sex and do obscenities without control. The girl goes off with her friends, with the consent of her parents. Wherever she wants to go…and then we’ll have children from adultery. Oh Lord, then accept them and remove the Islamic identity as it belongs to the past. And even if you wish, remove from the passports the word ‘Muslim’ as it belongs to the past. Oh Tunisian people, Europe and America didn’t make cards to enter churches. This innovation is Tunisian. Europe and America didn’t obliterate religious identity and its traditions because it belongs to the past. Marriage contracts aren’t abolished because they belong to the past. I advise Tunisians to destroy mosques and have everyone pray in his house, as this is better. They belong to the past… And not claim gender equality in childbirth and breast-feeding.
sammy Posted 2007-08-31
i think most of the tunisians will agree with the liberal idee. i also bellieve the country is for all citizens wheather moslims jews or chrestians all people equal. and i also believe that my country is doing well by accepting the way of the west than the arabs or moslims country coz people like the guy ANDALUS makes me sick these evels are the real danger to the modern world people still lives in the midivel people who believes in the idee of alqaida, people who are full of hate, there islam is not ours and we should be carefull to listen to these evels those are behind all the terror. these islamist are the DANGER i know some of you will say he's not a tunisian why bother? yes but i invite all of you to read his comment, and you will be afraid of every thing that bellongs to he's idee of making our country an afganistan one, we should be aware that people like ANDALUS are neither a friend nor brother but an ennemie. god bless my country and my people
Wissem Posted 2007-09-22
People of Tunisia in majority are not religious. I salute this bravery. it's time to stop the wave is islamism that is destroying our society. We don't need the Koran to run our society, we just need the rule of law to be applied to everyone without exceptions. Every faith and every degree of faith needs to be accepted by the constitution.
yes_in Posted 2007-10-21
As much as it gives me a headache, I am really happy to hear this debate. I am happy to find some secular Tunisians who are against the irrational Islamism attacking this country. I am seriously afraid of these menaces and what kind of change they could bring about in the minds of Tunisians. I hope this organization keeps up the good work.
slim Posted 2007-11-04
Bravo to these courageous people! I am happy to meet such secular Tunisians! Let us keep on peacefully enlightening these prisoners of religious conditioning and their likes. I have two sons ans two daughters who I love. Do you think that I will give them less than my sons in my will? Do you think that God loves boys more than girls? And you, who are reading these lines now, would you allow society to treat your daughters, your sister and your mother worse than your sons? Let us move to love each other! This is the fundamental principle of all religions in all that it means!!! Secularism is not atheism, nor is it immoral; it is respect and tolerance for all of our differences, permitting us the neutrality necessary to live together and, at home, in your own humble abode, to do what you want. You can wear a veil and wake up at 5am in the morning (without putting your speakers’ volume as high as it goes, please: I like to sleep and I am not troubling anyone.) But, please, let me live as I want, if I am not troubling you. Everyone has their own path to follow.
سمر Posted 2008-03-13
May God guide you. You are only thinking of life and you forget the afterlife. Is it the veil that hinders equality between man and woman, rubbish.
Soufiene Posted 2008-03-17
It seems that in Tunisia we are defending ourselves against Islamists just to pave the way for Extreme Leftists. What a mess! When are we ever going to learn to look at our real problems objectively and in depth and come up with solutions for them with taking recourse to ideological heresies and plans borrowed from elsewhere? Stop pretending to be interesting - or even arrogant - with your borrowed intelligence. Thank you, Ben Ali, for having controlled the political scene up until now. If we let things go, those who have been indoctrinated in every which way will screw our country into a mess. The Extreme leftists are using secularisation as political currency - or, rather, a battle horse — against the government. Long live Ben Ali! He is our sole solution until people learn how to think.
KAROUI Posted 2008-03-17
I am 33 years old. I love Tunisia. I could not live anywhere else. I come from a pretty relaxed, comfortable background, but paradoxically almost all of my friends come from Mellassine or elsewhere. (Not a pejorative.) I am deeply convinced that, after the fight for our country’s independence, the fight for secularization is the fight of the century, especially for Tunisia. I would like to join; I am ready to invest myself in this. I would like to know whom I have to contact. This is crucial to saving the definite heritage of the so very great man who made our country. -Kais Karoui
Soufiene Posted 2008-03-31
Talk, talk, talk! This organization is concealing a Radical Left lobby, which has been known for a long time in Tunisia. We need to beware of their attractive slogans: “Secularism, democracy and modernity”. These people are trying to impose a dictatorship on us one blow at a time. Only Islamist entities are integrationist in Tunisia, as are the Marxist and Extreme Leftist entities. Anyone can learn and repeat the slogans they are repeating.
Je suis une femme libre Posted 2008-05-09
Hello, Where is this association located and how I can contact it? I am a Tunisian and I wish to marry a non-Muslim. Thank you in advance
Tunisien Posted 2008-05-09
I am a free woman. I know a lot of Tunisians in Germany who work in brothels. They were married to non-Muslim men and then abandoned by them. So, beware of ruining your life. Be married to a Muslim man is a superb family life.
Je suis une femme libre Posted 2008-05-12
To “Tunisien”: Thank you, my dear compatriot, for you so very constructive advice, but know one thing: it is exactly because of men and women like you— who are, fortunately, becoming less and less numerous— that women prefer to sell themselves in European brothels than to confront the evil eyes of people who pretend to be God in order to give themselves the right to judge others. Know, my dear compatriot, that I am also planning to marry a non-Muslim because he has never judged me and he loves me for whom I am— a free woman making her own decisions and having her own convictions in complete calm of mind. However, I see that you do not have the response to my question; rather, in spite of all this, you have allowed yourself to give your opinion on a decision that belongs to me without me ever having asked for it. I do not envy you. This is a mentality that you have been nurturing for a long time, I presume. Family life has never been a problem of discrimination and judgment, rather it has been love, support and understanding. As for the women you mentioned being abandoned by Europeans, know that this is also because they were abandoned and rejected by their families that had to slip away from. This is pathetic. Well thank you all the same! Beyond this, thank you in advance to anyone who can inform me where the association is located and the means to contact them. I have a lot of things to tell them and I already wish to become a member. Best wishes!
OUALEED Posted 2008-06-27
This is all very simple: the state has been sowing terror for decades, usurping the rights of citizens to have land that is legitimately theirs returned to them and continuing to colonise the small part of the West Bank that remains. What is left? Is the state secular? May the people who want to talk about secularism drop their Zionist masks! May they have the courage to talk about secularism in occupied Palestine! Thank you for their sense of goodwill, but the path to Hell is paved with good intentions!
Hamadi Posted 2008-07-02
How can we get into contact with this association? Contrary to what some say, secularism is only supported by a minority in Tunisia. But, this is not a reason to not defend it.
Je suis une femme libre Posted 2008-07-09
To Hamadi; I managed to find this link. However, I did not manage to contact them. :(
george Posted 2008-07-17
I am in favour of secularism and modernisation. Long live secularism and a secular Tunisia! I am backing Ben Ali in 2009!
3ayari Posted 2009-08-01
I think this is very difficult. Perhaps in the yuppie neighbourhoods they will accept this, but they will not accept this at all in the South, West or centre of the country and even in the big cities. This is nothing more than the publicity of Islam in Tunisia going well. Perhaps there are problems with those who turn to Ikhwan, but they are limited to certain regions, and most often these are places without residential neighbourhoods like Nabeul. Personally, I think that in Tunisia there is none of this; there are plenty of girls who wear the hijab without any problems. Long live Islam!
Musulman et moderne Posted 2009-09-22
Many of the definitions of secularism are hidden and sometimes contradictory. There is the freedom of religion versus the prohibition of anything having to do with religion. There is democracy, which means no not having Islamists in power, versus the complete prohibition of any decision referencing religion – even if they are democratic – with the military as the guarantor. There is the prohibition of any ostentatious signs versus the freedom of habit. What secularism are you speaking of?
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